From Permanent Beginner to Developmental Practitioner

*transcript produced by AI

All right, here we are, another lovely Sunday.

I always love coming to practice with you all.

What’s up?

What would we like to explore today in our discussion period?

I don’t know if it’s discussion worthy, more just a comment of gratitude for the practice of the jhanas, the grounding-ness of it.

I’ve had a tumultuous couple of weeks here, and it’s admittedly really thrown me, but when I come to the cushion, and that makes the challenges not less present, but less, the word weighted.

They’re there, but there’s more space, and they ain’t got it.

No doubt.

Can you reflect a little bit on the difference that you notice when you’re coming to the cushion, either if you remember doing it prior to having training in the jhanas, or when you don’t come to the cushion with the intention to practice jhanas and life is difficult?

What’s the difference in the quality of your meditation?

I don’t know quite exactly how to frame the question.

Right, right.

The ability to put aside one’s thoughts.

You know, in the past, things would have kept cycling in, and I would have continually been either feeling pulled or fighting being pulled, and now the difference is, if I experience that, there’s different tools to move that aside more quickly so I can just get into a space of the thoughts just becoming wispy and disappearing, instead of feeling controlled by them.

Or emotions, same thing.

Boom.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wonderful to hear.

I think you touched on something that’s so important in our modern conception of practice and meditation, you know.

This understanding of meditation doesn’t seem to be as nearly as widespread as it used to be, or, I don’t know, if it ever was in the West, right?

But the open awareness meditations and, you know, the idea of disciplining the mind and concentrating the mind and pushing and being able to sit and detach from thoughts and emotions and watch them go away and go into a meditative space at will, on purpose, you know.

This is not how it seems to be talked about very much, which I think is interesting.

I could be wrong.

If you all know something I don’t about the way it’s typically talked about, please let me know.

Most popular teachings I hear treat that as something that’s very difficult to attain.

And so instead it’s always framed in the when you get distracted, celebrate that you noticed and come back.

No one ever says, well, train yourself to not get distracted.

Yeah, I admittedly, you know, don’t have a lot coming in outside of this group anymore.

But in my past experience, it was that was not talked about at all.

At all.

It was you just were supposed to, I don’t know, by osmosis, by stepping into the room, pretend that you were already there.

I don’t know.

I certainly did not get it.

Yeah.

Knowing who was leading that space, I don’t think that was any shortcoming first.

I mean, I compare this now to the mindfulness training, MBSR, and there it’s a lot of, yeah.

Get clear about what’s distracting you, get clear about the hindrances.

I mean, we have them in Zen too and in Jhana practice as well as we move through it.

And maybe it’s sometimes like, can I say, the social fear about too much discipline.

That’s what I would point to when I hear or listen to you, Umi, when you say people don’t instruct others to just train themselves to not get distracted.

Because that feels maybe for some of the, I would call them an exclamation mark sensitive people, too harsh, too pushy, too, I don’t know.

And then it might be just better for their, I don’t know, traumatized souls to get to know that’s okay to be distracted, to first ground themselves in what is instead of right away.

There is another way to live because this is way too far ahead.

That’s at least my experience.

So at least that I know about what is all possible.

I experienced, experienced and experienced myself limitations, embodied limitations, which don’t get me where I want to, even though I know that.

And for example, with the Jhana training and the experience of PT, which did not fade anyhow, this sit.

So I was shaking all like the whole time.

It’s not that much, but there is, this is a constant waving and shaking and whatever of my whole body and I’m just with it.

This does something to me, what I would call, how can I say it?

So I’m a little bit like the second procade, the expanding the container, though I’m finally in a process of allowing my body to show me what’s happening.

And so distractions are something for me that are showing what’s happening.

And if you just say, hey, don’t get distracted, we don’t acknowledge what’s there maybe.

And so this is what I have in my mind.

And you’re shaking your head.

So I’m listening.

Yeah, well, there’s that’s the that’s the miss.

That’s the misconception about the statement.

Train yourself to not be distracted.

People hear that and they think that immediately on your next set, you just don’t get distracted.

That’s not training yourself to not be distracted.

Right.

Training yourself as a process.

And part of the process is going through your system, clearing out all of the things that are distracting.

Right.

And the Jhana training, call it karmic purification, fires of purification.

Right.

And so in training, you go through extended periods of time where you are not comfortable on the cushion.

And you are distracted and your energetic system is reharmonizing itself completely independently of what you would like consciously.

And it’s not fun.

You know, and I think that is part of why people shy away from it, because going through that is really uncomfortable.

And and yeah.

And nowadays you can get sued for that.

Right.

People can show up at your retreat and they can be re-traumatized and they can try to litigate because you didn’t take appropriate psychological care.

So there are like real reasons for that.

I think my my largest concern that I want.

Us as a group of teachers to be aware of is that there is.

Appropriate beginner level instruction.

And then there’s limiting people to being forever beginners because you never show them what is next.

And this is what I see is the biggest problem in popular mindfulness meditation systems is that they treat people with baby gloves for decades.

Yeah, I agree.

Totally.

So I agree also with like the the apricot instructions or the core training instructions or whatever.

So every time when you teach things, then there is always like the the highest goal or the biggest end or however you name it.

It’s just there without saying you need to reach this now.

But just, hey, this this is probably possible.

And now you start here.

And at the beginning, just that, you know, I mean, it’s not nothing else than having a vision board.

Even though it’s not there yet, but you have an idea of what it could look like and how it could feel like.

And so this all.

Makes your whole system adjust to the possibilities.

Yep.

Because the biggest thing that we do is we limit ourselves and through our instruction, we unconsciously limit our students.

And if we want to liberate ourselves and liberate people, then the number one thing we have to do is look at our self limiting beliefs and remove them.

And we need to make sure I personally am highly convicted that when I speak to you, I do not reinforce or impose any self limiting beliefs.

That’s more important to me than you being comfortable.

Right.

That’s my job.

If I have a job, it is to destroy self limiting beliefs.

And that sucks sometimes.

What I’m enjoying about this conversation or appreciating is the emphasis on training, as opposed to spiritual bypassing.

That acknowledgment that it should fucking suck to be on the cushion for, you know, until you clean your shit out.

And if it doesn’t suck, then you’re doing something else.

And that is very scary.

And for that, Mitra, I love what Umi likes to say.

I mean, as long as you do it on purpose, doing something else.

So if getting on your cushion is you want a daydream and you want to have a good time and this is your purpose for that, have fun.

But if you don’t, if you want to establish something else, then you have to wonder about, then you have to get a teacher, then you have to discuss what’s happening, what’s really going on.

I know Umi smiles.

What’s cracking me up is that Bailey, every time, so Bailey and I will get into really deep discussions as part of his ongoing martial arts training and the combination of Zen and sovereignty that comes into how he’s learning martial arts in that particular container.

Right.

Because just like we teach that here in the Zen container, we also teach it there in the martial arts container.

So we’ll have the same kind of discussion.

And almost every time we might go through a cycle of two or three classes exploring an issue.

And then eventually he goes off.

It really is just pay attention and do it on purpose, isn’t it?

Yeah.

But it’s important to really explore the ramifications of that because it can become a catchphrase that we then hide behind.

Right.

And because what does it really mean to pay attention?

What does it really mean to do something on purpose?

Right.

Because our ego structures are so tricky and are so quick to justify and explain like it knew it beforehand.

And if we’re really honest with ourselves, we can recognize, actually, this is me trying to tell myself I was paying attention because I have an ego structure that will be hurt by admitting that I wasn’t paying attention and didn’t do that on purpose.

And so my I’m trying to protect my identity by telling myself that I was paying attention and did it on purpose.

And therefore, I’m justifying it ad hoc and accepting that.

And part of training is getting rid of that whole process.

Right.

And recognizing that whatever your identity structure is, it isn’t as important as being an integrity with the way.

Again, that’s deeply uncomfortable.

I think my life’s purpose at the moment is to catch myself and doing that.

And also become skillful at recognizing that somebody else is doing that and not throwing fuel on a fire.

How to be able to present it, acknowledge it and not have it go.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

Wow.

Sounds advanced.

So if it’s OK, I would like change the topic a little bit.

And just pointing to my to the sit that I had, because it was very interesting.

I mean, after I did the leading of the Qigong and sat down and just saw that sometimes you were faster than me.

So I had something in my body and when I sat down, it only took me like two breaths or something like that until my body started shaking.

But I don’t know.

I mean, two breaths.

I mean, yes, I did Qigong practice.

That’s nice.

That is something concentrating.

But also it could have been some kind of anxiety just because of what I just felt.

However, it felt very similar to other moments of practice when I’m in a concentration mode and the body keeps shaking.

You know what?

The body keeps shaking.

Just see what happens and concentrate on the shaking.

And I went with that.

And it was interesting because I still could notice here and there some kinds of hindrances, some things that I didn’t want and I wanted and I doubted.

And I’m less tired anymore.

So in the beginning of meditation, I always was tired, but this isn’t there anymore.

So I’m wondering how much is that really something that you would call PT or is it just my body doing stuff which feels like that?

And how can I discern?

So how can I understand?

Yeah.

So the phenomenological difference and what we feel in our body between being really revved up in our nervous system and having a feeling of PT is not necessarily that different.

But when we look at the mental qualities, then they become different.

Right.

So if the mind is experiencing rapture and bliss and is fundamentally happy and content, then what we’re experiencing in our body would be more likely to be PT.

If what we’re experiencing as a quality of mind is movement and reflection and thought and concern and going towards things and going away from things and stuff like that, then we’re still in the shamatha practice and our nervous system is presenting a state of anxiety.

Right.

Which is actually great.

FYI, I’m moving from the depression side of the scale where when you go into shamatha, you fall asleep to the anxiety side of the scale where you go into shamatha, you start twitching and freaking out and having a whole bunch of mental activity.

That’s actually great progress.

So I’m really excited to hear that.

But that’s how you know, because when you’re in shamatha and you’re staying focused on your concentration object and the mind is quieting and stilling and it rebels against that and your body is having its nervous system reassert itself, put itself into a parasympathetic response because of your shamatha practice, then it has characteristics more like what you just described.

You can still be quite deep.

You could probably be in Chuladasa’s 4, 5, 6, 7th stage of shamatha practice and be having those type of nervous system reactions and still have your mind pretty well anchored on your concentration object.

But it’s not going to become a jhana state until the mental qualities, the hindrances have dropped off and you’re experiencing fundamentally a quality of mental bliss and joy and ease and stuff going on where you’re like, oh, this feels so good.

Like if you’re not sitting there going, oh, it’s probably not PT.

Can you define shamatha, please?

Calm abiding.

We typically call that calm abiding or the stopping practice, which is what we’re doing when we concentrate on like our breath and we count malas prior to embodied absorption in the first jhana.

Sorry, I said jhana?

Yes.

I would say, as I remember, it was a dance between amazing and great.

Just like, oh, what my body does here.

And then sometimes it got more tense.

And then it was like, oh, what’s happening?

And then it was again like, oh, yeah, great.

So it was a dance between, I would guess, those two states in a way.

I don’t know.

So it’s very, very interesting.

But the biggest progress I see for myself is I’m okay with just observing.

This is like amazing that I’m able to just sit there and be there and don’t run away from it.

Like, ah.

Yeah, that is amazing and wonderful and huge, especially with a history of really being coy about big emotional experiences or what might be interpreted as a big emotional experience.

So that’s huge.

That’s huge.

So what you just described here probably puts you at like a 6-7 in shamatha where you weren’t really distracted in the sense of having those distractions pull you away from your concentration object.

But sometimes you’re in embodied absorption with PT characteristics when the mind state is absent of the anxiety and tension.

And then sometimes you’re back in the shamatha 6-7 phase when the mind state has the anxiety and stuff.

Because that’s kind of the defining characteristics of whether or not you’re going into jhanas and the further jhanas will present themselves.

So there’s a little bit of what we would call, well, I think the term instability is a good term, although it has some negative connotations that I don’t like.

But it’s kind of like competing mind modes.

And they’re like flicking back and forth in these competing mind modes about how you interpret the sensations that are happening in your body.

And you have a very ingrained mind mode that says, this is scary.

And you’re building a new mind mode that says, this is fun.

Right.

And so those kind of do this.

They go back and forth.

Right.

And that’s lovely.

And the more you just sit and observe that and understand each of these mind modes, the more you’ll be able to be like, I would like this one, please.

And then your system will serve you that one.

Because it’ll follow your intentions more readily.

Okay.

So this is, that will point to maybe the next question of mine.

Like, okay, when I observe this, what can I do to support my system to relax and get to another mode of mind?

So just, yeah.

Yeah.

Seeing it as something.

Okay.

In core training, we would say that you’re going to work at the sensation meaning making identity layer.

And the sensation is going to be the experience of embodied absorption and agitated bliss that arises as you become deeply present in your own system.

That’s the sensation that’s arising.

You have two competing modes of meaning.

Which are, this is freaky and this is great.

Right.

And then that, those lead you either to stay in shamatha or to move into jhanas.

And so you just set your intention to choose the meaning you want to give it before your sit.

That when embodied absorption and agitated bliss arise, I will choose to give it the meaning of, yes, this is arising.

That’s great.

And when I notice the other meaning arising, I will choose not to engage with that meaning.

Right.

And that’s the intention that you sit with.

And then you’re using the core training model with your meditation practice to.

Yeah.

That’s great.

And now while you say this, and I see that we are on time.

I texted you last time that I feel anxiety when there is nothing.

So when, when, when I would go further after like next jhanas.

So now I know why, why I’m better into the shamatha practice than into the jhana practice.

Ah, thank you for that.

Yeah.

Great, great, great questions about meditation practice.

I’m grateful that we’re able to kind of have a technical discussion about meditation.

Because that’s another thing that, especially when you get into the Zen community, they just don’t do.

But other schools of meditation are better at talking about the technical details, but then they turn it into something that’s like, you know, it’s like, it’s not that special.

It’s just.

Anyway.

Make sure you want to go ahead and make any final remarks and lead our closing check in or if you have a checking in.

As usual, I’m very grateful for the practice, and your guys’s presence, and I need to go find out why my phone is blowing up.

Have a wonderful Sunday.

You as well.

Hopefully nothing too serious.

Great.

Um, yeah, thank you for the practice.

Thank you for having me latching on and learning and sitting together and discussing stuff.

That’s always great.

I mean, let me check it in with joy, gratitude, and a full bladder.

So I’m looking forward to closing up and going pee.

Have a beautiful week.

Thank you.

See you.